Author Topic: The modification chain reaction  (Read 281 times)

Offline mopar31898

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The modification chain reaction
« on: January 05, 2020, 07:47:20 PM »
Hey all,

I looked around a little and didn?t see much regarding this so I thought I would ask the group. 

It seems like when we look at doing mods to our Jeeps, it leads to a rabbit hole of residual mods that need to happen. 

If that doesn?t make sense, let me give an example or two.

Let?s say on a TJ you want to do a lift and a slightly tighter skid plate.  But if you do that you may or may not need a SYE and a new driveshaft, which leads to.....and so on.

Or it seems like a lot of the guys with JLs can get pretty big tires with a minimal lift. But being able to go bigger so easily leads to needing gears and then maybe you want to throw in a locker and so on.

So I am not looking for anything specific, I?m just curious how all of you approach this type of situation. Do you pull the trigger and so everything at once, do you do one and deal with the side effects until you can get more parts or how do you approach it?

I?m sure there are tons of ways to skin a cat but I was just hoping to start a friendly discussion in a general sense.

Let me know what you guys think.

Offline R3

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Re: The modification chain reaction
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2020, 08:39:06 PM »
Great question.
Most start with one thing and gradually keep going. But with some things, there are other parts to the puzzle. Big tires....oops no fender clearance....either cut fenders or lift.... Oh crap performance suffering...gears? Turbo? Supercharger? Or go Krazy and drop a V8 ....so yes every modifications affects all the other components.
Older rigs end up being a bit less mod friendly..where as new are built to accept common modifications.

So what to do?
Drive the Jeep and see what works and what doesn't. Now you have an idea of what needs attention.  Build a plan. Do some research and compare prices. Build a budget.
So to answer your question it depends.  It depends on what you want to do, what your budget is.

Take a look for the thread " thoughts on mods" in the tec section...

My personal approach... I wanted a great daily driver and is super capable on the trail....a compromise.  I wanted to increase break over clearance...axle clearance which lead to a lift, tires and a regear. Plus a whole lot of learning on suspension design. Protection for the rockers was required and steps would be a benefit..  all of this happened over the course of a year.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 06:43:27 AM by R3 »
Cheers

17 JKURR
2013 Victory XCT hot rod.


"Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see"

Offline R3

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Re: The modification chain reaction
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2020, 06:50:38 AM »
Hey all,

I looked around a little and didn?t see much regarding this so I thought I would ask the group. 

It seems like when we look at doing mods to our Jeeps, it leads to a rabbit hole of residual mods that need to happen. 

If that doesn?t make sense, let me give an example or two.

Let?s say on a TJ you want to do a lift and a slightly tighter skid plate.  But if you do that you may or may not need a SYE and a new driveshaft, which leads to.....and so on.

Or it seems like a lot of the guys with JLs can get pretty big tires with a minimal lift. But being able to go bigger so easily leads to needing gears and then maybe you want to throw in a locker and so on.

So I am not looking for anything specific, I?m just curious how all of you approach this type of situation. Do you pull the trigger and so everything at once, do you do one and deal with the side effects until you can get more parts or how do you approach it?

I?m sure there are tons of ways to skin a cat but I was just hoping to start a friendly discussion in a general sense.

Let me know what you guys think.

https://forum.novajeepers.com/index.php?topic=30671.0 little more information and thoughts on mods.
Cheers

17 JKURR
2013 Victory XCT hot rod.


"Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see"

Offline doctag1979

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Re: The modification chain reaction
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2020, 07:38:21 AM »
I would say every build and person is different. Is it a DD or a trail pig, is it a third car and can sit for a few weeks waiting on parts. With my jeep I went mod for mod. I did big wheels and tires and a budget boost then weeks later just before my first trail ride I did skids. Xmas was coming then bumpers so on and so on. When I build my wifes jeep it sat in the garage for 3 months as parts and money came in. It did not leave till it was done with all the mechanical stuff. One part will effect another. You just need to know witch ones and how and go form there.


Tim 

Offline cwkann

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  • Winchester, VA
Re: The modification chain reaction
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2020, 08:02:05 AM »
I would say every build and person is different. Is it a DD or a trail pig, is it a third car and can sit for a few weeks waiting on parts. With my jeep I went mod for mod. I did big wheels and tires and a budget boost then weeks later just before my first trail ride I did skids. Xmas was coming then bumpers so on and so on. When I build my wifes jeep it sat in the garage for 3 months as parts and money came in. It did not leave till it was done with all the mechanical stuff. One part will effect another. You just need to know witch ones and how and go form there.


Tim

This is absolutely true.   Each build is personal for your uses.  I would suggest a plan on what you want your end result to be and then start researching what it will take to get where you want it.  You can either save money and do it all at once, or plan the build and work on it in increments.  But your build will be different than someone else's so figure out what you want to do first.  don't build it several different times.  just my thought.
'03 Rubicon- 4.5" RE LA, 37"s, A bunch of skids by TNT, Poison Spyder, EMP, Rock Hard, Warn, Kilby and custom fab work.  CAI, Power chip, Exhaust, 4.88 gears and chromoly axles by Yukon. OBA and Powertank, one ton steering, Teraflex Swaybar system, MM 9500lb winch and a bunch of other stuff...

Offline Runner

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Re: The modification chain reaction
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2020, 12:49:38 PM »
The best rule of thumb is to pick your desired tire size first. Other upgrades, such as lift, new axles, gearing, steering, shock, control arm, and brake upgrades will follow that decision..  The second thing to decide is what's your wheeling style?  For example, if you only do occasional "trail" riding you won't need a super flexy suspension and replacement skids.  However, if you plan on spending time on rocks, more flex, SYE, and plenty of skid protection is needed. Obviously, the platform your building on also plays a factor.  For example, TJs, or even an LJ, don't hold up to 37" tires and abuse on stock axles.  However, a JK or JL will do better in this area.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 12:51:30 PM by Runner »
2004 LJ - Built to wheel, but hides in the garage :(

Offline R3

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Re: The modification chain reaction
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2020, 01:56:21 PM »
The best rule of thumb is to pick your desired tire size first. Other upgrades, such as lift, new axles, gearing, steering, shock, control arm, and brake upgrades will follow that decision..  The second thing to decide is what's your wheeling style?  For example, if you only do occasional "trail" riding you won't need a super flexy suspension and replacement skids.  However, if you plan on spending time on rocks, more flex, SYE, and plenty of skid protection is needed. Obviously, the platform your building on also plays a factor.  For example, TJs, or even an LJ, don't hold up to 37" tires and abuse on stock axles.  However, a JK or JL will do better in this area.

Some great information here.   You drove the Jeep in a challenging environment with some well equipped rigs. You survived and  are now thinking  what?  Did you define what worked well and what needs improvment?  I would say yes.  So now set the goal and remember  this is your goal not anyone elses.  Some equestions to ask yoruself. Do you need to drive this everyday?  What kind of trails do you want to run on a consistant basis? What is your budget? I would add do not be in a hurry. Being in a hurry  this leads to decisions that may be less than optimal and expensive.

Ground clearance is only achieved at the axle by tire diameter so as Runner states choose a tire size. There is a ripple  that goes with that choice.   Breakover  angle is improved by a variet of ways to include a tummy tuck, suspension lift. There is also a ripple that goes with this choice.

I would add do not compare your rig with New Rigs. Design comes into play with 20 years of evolution.
 
So back to the goal. Part of any trail ride is dealing with the challenges presented So this brings to mind recovery equipment.  Certainly a cheaper way forward if your rig fits your lifestyle and needs.

A sport is an introductory rig. It is capable in it own right and fit a a budget.  As the trim level progress toward Rubicon, the OEM design this level with more input from the  Jeeping community writ large. Stronger components, and locking axles.  TJ improved on CJ/YJ, The JK improved on the TJ and the JL improved on the JK at the OEM level.  One can debate all day which is better, but there are significant differences between the model lines.

So Improving  breakover angle leads you down the Tummy tuck route.  There are associated  modifications that go with this I will let the TJ gurus  expand  on what is required and what is nice to have.  I will say this. if you are going to keep the Jeep forever than  have a ball with modifications. if this is just a step.... then weigh the  benifits of  current  rig to  updating to a new model. This is  in effect hot rodding. You are not going to get you investment  back in dollars....it is paid back in smiles.  "How fast do you want to go? How much money do you have?

Cheers
Cheers

17 JKURR
2013 Victory XCT hot rod.


"Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see"

Offline sjalkian

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Re: The modification chain reaction
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2020, 02:16:54 PM »
So much great information in this thread.  I agree with all the points already stated.  My build evolved with each time I hit the trails.  I have been lucky enough to see the benefit of those mods on the subsequent trip.  Would it have been better to upgrade once?  For sure, but I didn't know what I didn't know.  For me, half the fun of Jeeps is wrenching on them so mods are always fun even if you have to do the same thing multiple times.  I can now remove the whole front end of my TJ with ease because I've done it so many times.

As far as mods of TJs like the one you have, Runner's suggestion of pick your desired tire size first.  You have run some black trails at RC with your 31s and stock shovel (transfer case skid) and know where there are some hang ups.  A tummy tuck is a fantastic mod for a TJ, but it is also the definition of a rabbit hole.  For me, the best mods I've done so far are the tummy tuck and axles with 4.88 gears and lockers.  That opened up a whole lot of tougher trails with my 33s.  Also, your rig is never "done" and never will be so don't worry about that  ;)

Sarkis
Freebird - 2000 TJ SE
5" total lift (3.75" SL and 1.25"BL)
35's Cooper SST Pro's
Rear D44 with ARB locker and 33 spline chromo shafts and 4.88 gears
Front HP D30 with Aussie Locker and 4.88 gears
UCF Tummy Tuck
X20 10K Synthetic Winch

Offline Runner

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Re: The modification chain reaction
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2020, 08:58:33 PM »
It's going to sound a bit boring, and nerdy, but building a Jeep is very much like Algebra (from Arabic: الجبر‎, transliterated "al-jabr", literally meaning "reunion of broken parts"). How do you solve an algebraic equation?
Steps:

    Write the problem. ...
    Decide whether to use addition or subtraction to isolate the variable term. ...
    Add or subtract the constant on both sides of the equation. ...
    Eliminate the coefficient of the variable through division or multiplication. ...
    Solve for the variable.

Plain English translation, the very first, and most important, thing that you learn in algebra is that whatever you do, you MUST keep your equation balanced! It's the number one factor in solving equations and the same applies to building a Jeep. For example spring heights must be balanced with pinion angle changes. Shock compression has to be balanced with shock extension. Body or structural interference has to be balanced with bump stops. More weight, both sprung and unsprung, has to be balanced with increased steering and stopping power. The list goes on and on, so the moral of the story is changing one thing will inevitably change something else, thus requiring balance. When done correctly, you can have a Jeep that will run 70 MPH down 66 with ease, ride comfortably, change lanes safely, and come to a stop with confidence. If you don't have balance, be prepared for a disappointment and a ride that can be a true white knuckle experience!
2004 LJ - Built to wheel, but hides in the garage :(

Offline mopar31898

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Re: The modification chain reaction
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2020, 07:33:08 AM »
Everyone,

Thank you very much for all the info. Originally I was thinking I would get a few comments or experiences but you have given me a bunch of very valuable information.

I have been mapping things out for a little while now but this gives me a solid route and variables to think about.

For now, I have the suspension sorted out and I?m thinking about the next phase. I may have some more questions in the few weeks.

If anyone else has some good experiences, I?m always open.

Offline R3

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Re: The modification chain reaction
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2020, 07:45:49 AM »
It's going to sound a bit boring, and nerdy, but building a Jeep is very much like Algebra (from Arabic: الجبر‎, transliterated "al-jabr", literally meaning "reunion of broken parts"). How do you solve an algebraic equation?
Steps:

    Write the problem. ...
    Decide whether to use addition or subtraction to isolate the variable term. ...
    Add or subtract the constant on both sides of the equation. ...
    Eliminate the coefficient of the variable through division or multiplication. ...
    Solve for the variable.

Plain English translation, the very first, and most important, thing that you learn in algebra is that whatever you do, you MUST keep your equation balanced! It's the number one factor in solving equations and the same applies to building a Jeep. For example spring heights must be balanced with pinion angle changes. Shock compression has to be balanced with shock extension. Body or structural interference has to be balanced with bump stops. More weight, both sprung and unsprung, has to be balanced with increased steering and stopping power. The list goes on and on, so the moral of the story is changing one thing will inevitably change something else, thus requiring balance. When done correctly, you can have a Jeep that will run 70 MPH down 66 with ease, ride comfortably, change lanes safely, and come to a stop with confidence. If you don't have balance, be prepared for a disappointment and a ride that can be a true white knuckle experience!

Absolutely Brilliant characterization of the issue!!!!
Cheers

17 JKURR
2013 Victory XCT hot rod.


"Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see"

Offline Jeepride

  • Member 2019 VA4WD/BRC
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Re: The modification chain reaction
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2020, 08:16:31 AM »
Lockers before light bars!  :lol
Black Goat Off-Road
2013 Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon 10th Anniversary Edition, AEV bumpers, Warn 8000 winch, 3.5" AEV lift, C gussets, trussed, sleeved D44s with 4.88s and elockers, 37" Nitto Grapplers on Level 8 wheels and full Rock Hard skids.

Offline mopar31898

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Re: The modification chain reaction
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2020, 04:33:41 PM »
Lockers before light bars!  :lol

Actually, with VA inspection laws, lockers may be an easier install than light bars.   :lol

Lockers are on the list, but way down the list at this time.

Offline unl1mtd

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Re: The modification chain reaction
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2020, 10:10:11 PM »
Lockers before light bars!  :lol

here here  :wrench
unl1mtd@novajeepers.com   

Offline cwkann

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Re: The modification chain reaction
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2020, 08:25:40 AM »
Go for as much BLING as possible!!!!  That is the ULTIMATE!    :razz :razz   :lol :lol
'03 Rubicon- 4.5" RE LA, 37"s, A bunch of skids by TNT, Poison Spyder, EMP, Rock Hard, Warn, Kilby and custom fab work.  CAI, Power chip, Exhaust, 4.88 gears and chromoly axles by Yukon. OBA and Powertank, one ton steering, Teraflex Swaybar system, MM 9500lb winch and a bunch of other stuff...

 

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