Recommendations for shop with competency with Jeep clutch jobs.

[DC]

Friends,
If anyone has recommendations for a competent shop within 15-20 miles of DC I would appreciate it. My likely needs will be someone with good competence with clutch work

Backstory: I may have screwed my clutch and possibly other elements in my bellhousing in my 2017/manual trans/38k miles JK.
I am not getting any symptoms other than brake fluid coming out of bell housing inspection area on a slow leak while parked, probably an ounce every two days. Clutch is also engaging closer to floorboards than usual. But I am not driving it since seeing the problem.

I am going to crawl under and replace the slave cylinder, but everything I have read indicates a slave rarely fails on its own at this low a mileage and the more I drive the more likely I am to turn problem into a larger one by contaminating clutch or busting up everything in the bell housing.
So fingers crossed it is just slave, but in case this is not solved with new slave, I would very much appreciate any recommendations for a shop competent at clutch jobs.
Thanks in advance for any help

 

[DC]

Well, as a progress report and bump of this: I replaced slave, twice. Both times, plus the first time on the original's failure, it appears that the slave piston end that goes into trans, over-extended and blew out the slave seal.
No leak at bleeder. No leak at hydraulic line at slave from clutch master cylinder, just copious leak of brake fluid at bell housing and drop in fluid at reservoir, plus low, close to floorboard, clutch engagement that could leave me stranded if I drive it.
So this makes me suspect that the three slave failures are not a cause, but are a symptom. Likely throw out, or pilot, or fork, or springs or something that effects where the business end of the slave piston rests in clutch housing is compromised/broken/out of position -- allowing slave to push forward beyond its tolerance and blowing out its own seal.
So I really do need a shop. I would prefer one not too too far from DC as I am in downtown DC.

Anyone know of one they have used that they feel is competent??

 

[Gr8Dain]

Ugh. Sorry I have no recommendations for you, but good luck with it.

 

[Nacho]

I think @42circle recently replaced his clutch. not sure how his experience was or where he went.

 

[zuke]

Well, as a progress report and bump of this: I replaced slave, twice. Both times, plus the first time on the original's failure, it appears that the slave piston end that goes into trans, over-extended and blew out the slave seal.
No leak at bleeder. No leak at hydraulic line at slave from clutch master cylinder, just copious leak of brake fluid at bell housing and drop in fluid at reservoir, plus low, close to floorboard, clutch engagement that could leave me stranded if I drive it.
So this makes me suspect that the three slave failures are not a cause, but are a symptom. Likely throw out, or pilot, or fork, or springs or something that effects where the business end of the slave piston rests in clutch housing is compromised/broken/out of position -- allowing slave to push forward beyond its tolerance and blowing out its own seal.
So I really do need a shop. I would prefer one not too too far from DC as I am in downtown DC.

Anyone know of one they have used that they feel is competent??

Bent Fork? I've also seen a worn pivot point for the fork cause similar issues..

 

[majestek12]

I echo what Zuke said - likely a misaligned or worn component allowing the fork to move too far.

I'm a TJ guy so please excuse any ignorance, but do the JK transmissions have inspection covers or dust covers that can be removed to get some optics on the internal workings without backing out the whole transmission?

As far as having transmission work done, have been many good reports on here from County Transmission in Vienna. This is likely further than you'd like to go, but all work is hands down absolutely stellar. That said, I had recommended them to a person looking for a rebuild of a SM420 a while ago and they mentioned that County no longer haz any staff specializing in the rebuilds of manuals. I don't know if this extends to any manual work, or just rebuilds - clutches and such are much simpler, worth a call though.

 

[DC]

I echo what Zuke said - likely a misaligned or worn component allowing the fork to move too far.

I'm a TJ guy so please excuse any ignorance, but do the JK transmissions have inspection covers or dust covers that can be removed to get some optics on the internal workings without backing out the whole transmission?

As far as having transmission work done, have been many good reports on here from County Transmission in Vienna. This is likely further than you'd like to go, but all work is hands down absolutely stellar. That said, I had recommended them to a person looking for a rebuild of a SM420 a while ago and they mentioned that County no longer haz any staff specializing in the rebuilds of manuals. I don't know if this extends to any manual work, or just rebuilds - clutches and such are much simpler, worth a call though.

I actually called county to get an estimate on full clutch job. They were pretty high priced. Guy who called me back and I talked to sounded more like service estimator than a tech. Said $3,200. Had me a bit concerned since he said if needed they would resurface flywheel, when various forums indicate that official service manual clearly says the flywheel cannot not be resurfaced on later model JKs like mine.

The problem is I will be essentially committed with wherever I choose, since I will be into maybe 3/4 of the labor costs in just pulling and diagnosing. There is also going to be some mostly blind trust in advisability of doing full clutch job if is just something like bearing and I will have to take their advice on condition of clutch and flywheel. My 2017 JK is 38k miles, about 4,000 miles a year, but this includes a lot of city driving so the effective age of my clutch in terms of total gear shifts, maybe more like 60k miles or maybe 100k miles. My ratio of city driving has been pretty high.

I did have dealer (koons) do oil cooler last winter. In good weather I'd have been tempted to do it myself, but since dealer offered it for just $170 more than local shops, and offered 24/24 on parts and labor, when local shops would only give 12/12, I elected to have dealer do it. I have the ability, I just don't have a garage, nor a trans lift, just an outdoor off-alley parking space in fairly dense area of city and my place is one flight up so I am not going to do this hauling up parts and tools every night.

My guess is I am going to pay a premium on labor and parts at dealer compared to a transmission shop. And budget is a big consideration. But I think manual trans jeeps are down to under 5% sold, and I have a suspicion, especially after the JL recall mess, that right now the techs at the dealers know a lot more about what a JK clutch should look like.

There is no inspection dust cover. I did look with decent boroscope up from bellhousing split and from slave hole, but I have no idea what I was looking at other than seeing a whole LOT of red grease on throw out which I think the tech who serviced it in 2019 for an warranty replacement of throw-out must have used.

 

[DC]

I think @42circle recently replaced his clutch. not sure how his experience was or where he went.

If anyone personally knows this guy could you drop them a note asking them to look at this forum PM from me? Thanks!

 

[majestek12]

Sounds like a tough spot. I agree with you, labor is going to be the most expensive part, and just an inspection will take you effectively the whole way to completing a clutch job, minus parts and a little bit of labor to install them.

IMO, if you or someone else is going that far in and you're committed to keeping the vehicle, replace everything even though it may hit the wallet harder. Clutch assembly of course, throw out bearing, pilot bearing, flywheel, check the clutch fork for any wear or warping, as well as the pivot stanchion and (on some) the plastic pivot cap. If you're worried about something being out of spec, I would honestly just replace it given the cost to redo the work.

$3,200 is a ton! Had no idea inflation had hit so hard. However, given the expectedly higher labor rates and dealer costs, you can probably have a trans shop replace all the parts for the cost of the dealer just doing the usual clutch assembly. While the dealership may have more focused familiarity with particular models, it's been my experience that it's more up to the actual technician rather than dealer or indy shop. As with any shop, you have junior guys, mid level, and senior, even within the A/B/C tech jobs or journeyman/master tiers you'll find substantial variability in workmanship. Odds may be a little bit better, but it's still a roll of the dice. I'm just a shade tree mechanic, but honestly I've had friends who have worked at dealerships call me to help diagnose.

I'm a TJ guy, knowing relatively little about JK's, but your understanding that the flywheel should not be resurfaced could be accurate by my experience. I wasn't aware of this until doing my own clutch years ago and taking the flywheel to a shop to be resurfaced, only to reinstall and figure out it had been machined out of balance or shape. Reading up on it, afterwards of course cuz hard lessons stick with you the best, forum reports indicated the 4.0 flywheel has a slight bevel to it that cannot be resurfaced. Unfortunately it was in the middle of winter and a snowstorm and I only had a partially covered carport, read parking spot under a deck, so the work wasn't fun until I could feel my fingers again. At least all the bolts were easy to remove the second time around!

If you've got a borescope, I suggest looking at a parts explosion diagram while operating the clutch. This can help elucidate the operation and where things may be going wrong. Equally, there may be somebody on here willing to check it out with you.

 

[DC]

Sounds like a tough spot. I agree with you, labor is going to be the most expensive part, and just an inspection will take you effectively the whole way to completing a clutch job, minus parts and a little bit of labor to install them.

IMO, if you or someone else is going that far in and you're committed to keeping the vehicle, replace everything even though it may hit the wallet harder. Clutch assembly of course, throw out bearing, pilot bearing, flywheel, check the clutch fork for any wear or warping, as well as the pivot stanchion and (on some) the plastic pivot cap. If you're worried about something being out of spec, I would honestly just replace it given the cost to redo the work.

$3,200 is a ton! Had no idea inflation had hit so hard. However, given the expectedly higher labor rates and dealer costs, you can probably have a trans shop replace all the parts for the cost of the dealer just doing the usual clutch assembly. While the dealership may have more focused familiarity with particular models, it's been my experience that it's more up to the actual technician rather than dealer or indy shop. As with any shop, you have junior guys, mid level, and senior, even within the A/B/C tech jobs or journeyman/master tiers you'll find substantial variability in workmanship. Odds may be a little bit better, but it's still a roll of the dice. I'm just a shade tree mechanic, but honestly I've had friends who have worked at dealerships call me to help diagnose.

I'm a TJ guy, knowing relatively little about JK's, but your understanding that the flywheel should not be resurfaced could be accurate by my experience. I wasn't aware of this until doing my own clutch years ago and taking the flywheel to a shop to be resurfaced, only to reinstall and figure out it had been machined out of balance or shape. Reading up on it, afterwards of course cuz hard lessons stick with you the best, forum reports indicated the 4.0 flywheel has a slight bevel to it that cannot be resurfaced. Unfortunately it was in the middle of winter and a snowstorm and I only had a partially covered carport, read parking spot under a deck, so the work wasn't fun until I could feel my fingers again. At least all the bolts were easy to remove the second time around!

If you've got a borescope, I suggest looking at a parts explosion diagram while operating the clutch. This can help elucidate the operation and where things may be going wrong. Equally, there may be somebody on here willing to check it out with you.

Thanks so much for your taking the time and your considered advice. in fact thank you to all who have commented. Just looking at parts prices this is going to hurt a lot. Oem Flywheel msrp is .... $960. It is as low as $650 plus $75 shipping or so! And if it is 8 hours labor no matter what ,I also feel like replacing everything in clutch system is wise, but I don't want to even add up all the parts, even discounted prices of those insane oem.

I will look with boroscope. I did source a oem slave after a lot of searching (there is a shortage) and am going to swap it on Tuesday. So I will look see at the fork. But I am fairly sure I will be able to see something of fork ("called clutch release pivot" by Mopar) and throw out bearing ("clutch release bearing") but I haven't seen the inside of a clutch system since my 1964 Falcon with three on the tree and Gerald Ford was in office.

 

[majestek12]

$960 for an iron, non-dual mass flywheel is bonkers. A Luk flywheel is $178 from Summit. Omix is $188 from Jeep Hut, add $12 of other stuff and you get free shipping. Both for the 3.6, for some reason Summit lists the 3.8 up to 2018. Obviously these are counter prices but that OEM quote is crazy. Clutch fork might be hard to find non-OEM besides possibly Omix, but everything else should be available in quality, non-OEM options - clutch kit, throwout bearing, flywheel, etc. at a much more reasonable price. You'll pay the shop markup, but I'd bet an indy would give a quote for all the parts inside the bellhousing that is less than Jeep is charging for just the flywheel.

There's always the chance something else is wrong like the front bearing retainer getting messed up, pivot stanchion broke off or cracked the bellhousing at the base, but usually these are associated with more issues that just a leak.

Reading up on it, seems quite a few guys have issues with failed throwout bearings allowing too much slave travel. Also, an o-ring on the line seems to be commonly problematic as well, though it seems this would leak externally.

 

[majestek12]

Just some food for thought, things to check.

https://www.jk-forum.com/forums/stock-jk-tech-12/upper-oil-pan-gasket-leaking-after-new-one-installed-353951/

This guy thought it was a oil leak, turned out to be clutch fluid. Thought it was from the slave cylinder itself, but turns his leak at the line connection showed up in the same transmission inspection cover area.

Before going all in, do you have the ability to lay under the Jeep and look will somebody pumps the clutch? Seems that the little o-ring on the end of the hydraulic line is known to be problematic.

 

[R3]

I have a full clutch set up for a 2017 jku. Pm me if interested. Brand new LUK never installed.

 

[DC]

Just some food for thought, things to check.

https://www.jk-forum.com/forums/stock-jk-tech-12/upper-oil-pan-gasket-leaking-after-new-one-installed-353951/

This guy thought it was a oil leak, turned out to be clutch fluid. Thought it was from the slave cylinder itself, but turns his leak at the line connection showed up in the same transmission inspection cover area.

Before going all in, do you have the ability to lay under the Jeep and look will somebody pumps the clutch? Seems that the little o-ring on the end of the hydraulic line is known to be problematic.

Thanks for helping think this out. All good advice. I can tell you from my research that video is a guy with 2008, and for the pre-2012 connection type between hose/tube at slave. after 2012 like mine it is different and that larger barrel shaped washer is not used. See post three here:

Loading…

www.wranglerforum.com

Also leak from there at master-slave tube/hose to slave interface cannot from what I understand leak at bellhousing. I have no leak/wetness anything at all at hose/slave interface, but rather bell housing.

Wish me luck when I give it another try with new OEM. I will either have a success or I will be in likely something internal territory and crying like a baby.
By the way the guy who thought he solved his problem with different o-ring actually ended up replacing his entire clutch a short time after:

Loading…

www.jk-forum.com

 

[R3]

I still have my Manual trans on a pallet. Will take a look at it and see if there is anything there I can see that might help ya.

 

[DC]

Ok, no joy today. I need some feedback on how clutch release/throw out works or what I should see.

New attempt with new slave cylinder: Today I had a pal who has quite a bit more knowledge on vehicles helping me. We went with empty brake pump at reservoir at 5lb pressure, making sure to keep res full.. That seemed to go well. We pumped several pints through after tube to catch bottle showed no air whatsoever. All good so far. Pedal was still very spongy. Vehicle started, low pedal. Did A few pedal based bleeds and pedal go very soft and vehicle would not start. (No leak during after all of this at bellhousing.)

I went to pull out slave to attempt tilt and prefill by pumping slave method and despite having made sure to have placed slave end into only thing that seem like cup of TOB, it was off that cup and slave had extended at an angle behind it.. When we finally got it out, I noticed that TOB or combination of TOB and fork could be moved in and out by me but whatever position I left it it would stay at. Is this supposed to have any sprung resistance? It has none. I am not even sure whether that is even the TOB!

 

[zuke]

You maybe missing a small spring that should be on the clutch fork pivot point, It doesn't provide whole lot of push, but it does provide some, The slave is supposed to provide most of the push back. It's part #9 in this diagram;

https://itsajeepworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/JK_JKU-Parts-List-Group-6-Clutch.pdf

 

[majestek12]

The throw out bearing is not in the picture you provided. That cup is the slave cylinder end of the clutch fork. The throw out bearing is cylindrical and rides on the input shaft of the transmission, to see it you'll have to use your boroscope. Checking out the link Zuke sent should help you visualize what's inside the bellhousing and identify parts and names.

My experience is there should always be a little pressure between the end of the clutch fork and the slave cylinder. Usually, when installing any slave cylinder I find the body of it freely slides down the mounting studs until there's a little pressure at the very last end, maybe 1/8 to a quarter inch worth of nut tightening is required to fully install the slave. This keeps the slave cylinder piston and the clutch fork in contact to avoid misalignment of the piston, excess wear on the component contact points, and audible rattling inside the bellhousing. Zuke may have identified the problem for you, if the pressure spring at the pivot stanchion on the other side of the bell housing has gotten weak or broken, it's not putting "see saw" pressure (far from a technical term but I think it conveys the intent) on the clutch fork to keep the opposite end against the slave cylinder piston. It may also be the slave cylinder piston just missed the cup on the end of the clutch fork when you installed it. When installing slave cylinders you have to make sure the piston is in contact with the cup on the end of the clutch fork and then tighten down the slave cylinder evenly to make sure it doesn't get misaligned. In any case, if the slave cylinder piston was able to fully extend without pressure being applied from the clutch fork, you will have low pedal pressure as there's no resistance pushing back.

If you have the slave cylinder out, I would suggest using your boroscope to peek around inside the bell housing and compare it to diagrams like Zuke posted or on Google.

 

[DC]

You maybe missing a small spring that should be on the clutch fork pivot point, It doesn't provide whole lot of push, but it does provide some, The slave is supposed to provide most of the push back. It's part #9 in this diagram;

https://itsajeepworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/JK_JKU-Parts-List-Group-6-Clutch.pdf

Thanks so much. I was visualizing it backwards, and the pics on the net are 95% looking at other side of fork ("Clutch release lever") where you can't see that dimple/cup on the fork/lever which the cross ball/plastic tip of slave fits into.

So mine looks like it should, but may be a) bent, or b) missing a spring, either causing slave end it to slip off that dimple? Without slave installed, I definitely can pull that fork/lever toward the outside right up to slave insert opening (per the photo I took). When I do it stays there until I push it in with finger or with slave
When I push it in it remains in without pushback. Perhaps when extended or extending it is slipping off that dimple for some reason?

The throw out bearing is not in the picture you provided. That cup is the slave cylinder end of the clutch fork.

Thank you both so kindly. I think I have visualized correctly now. There is a slight possibility I misaligned on the last attempt to bleed.

After using brake pressure bleeder, and not getting pedal resistance after quite a few cycles and no air in line, and same with clutch pedal, I did in the end use the "prefill" method.

in other words, I removed slave, tilting it so bleeder and supply line end were upwards. and physically pumping slave itself. That most definitely filled slave and made it way firmer, but made re-insertion a struggle. So when I went to take it out again it was definitely off the fork cup/dimple, wedged in a bit and I was freaked for several minutes not wanting to pull of that snap on end piece/cross ball and ending up with it in the housing. I got it out in one piece after opening bleeder.

I would actually be glad if it is user error on install, since yet another go that would be a couple grand cheaper solution. That said, something caused the initial failure and dot3 in the bell housing.

Again thank you so much for your help with my saga so far!

 

[majestek12]

There's certainly no shortage of possibilities, but I always find it best to keep things simple, Occam's razor - back to basics type thing. While multiple slave cylinders have been tried, there is the possibility that the original one just failed, and subsequent ones haven't been installed correctly. Not a criticism at all - especially when frustrated and/or learning a new procedure I tend to make such mistakes myself.

The clutch fork and slave cylinder piston have to maintain decent contact to ensure their proper alignment - the end of the slave cylinder piston has to reliably rest in the cup on the end of the clutch fork. If the clutch fork does not "see saw" with retraction of the slave cylinder piston, this contact will not be maintained.

Failure of the pressure spring on the pivot stanchion (the post opposite the slave cylinder), as zuke mentions, won't put this pressure on the clutch fork.

Equally, there's little capture arms on the throw out bearing that keep it properly located on the clutch fork and serves as the central pivot for the clutch fork. If these have failed or become disconnected from the clutch fork, the clutch fork moves fore and aft too much rather than "see sawing". If this central pivot point is not maintained, the clutch fork does not return as it should and reliable positioning of the slave cylinder piston and clutch fork can be lost. I personally consider this possibility to be low chance, I would imagine difficulty in clutch operation or significant rattling or noises coming from the bell housing if this was your failure mode. But, weirder things have happened and this should remain on the table.

Lastly, if the throw out bearing is not sliding properly on the input shaft retainer, the clutch fork will not return.

There's lots of technical terminology here to help you identify diagram components, but it's a relatively simple concept. Imagine a seesaw, with the pivot stanchion and pressure spring on one end, the throw out bearing in the middle, and the slave cylinder on the opposite end.

Google is failing me, there's plenty of videos on clutch operation but they don't match this specific application or design. This doesn't get into details but does show your clutch fork design operates. Watching it with the context provided above should help your mental imagery. In this video, the gentleman's hand outside frame bottom right is performing the action of the slave cylinder piston.

(Edit - typos and grammar, please turn down volume to audibly disregard innuendo)