Some Thoughts on Modifications Part 2

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R3

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I have revieved this thread in the new forum.

My thought in starting this thread is to try to pool some information learned thru my build process. It is my intent to let others learn from my experience, research and application. I wrote this not to suggest one manufacture or brand over another but just present some of the information I have learned and gathered thru my process. We all have opinions, I will do my best to present facts and information not brand hype. I will say you can buy cheap and replace it again and again or spend a little more and buy it once.

Background: I bought my first Jeep in 1976 a 1954 CJ5 4 cylinder 3 speed rig. It needed work a lot of work and by the time it was "done" the little CJ had a Commando drive train installed and huge 31 inch tires. That silly thing went everywhere. Built on a budget with limited resources and no real specialty equipment it was a great way to get out into the woods and have fun. This was preceded by many a Jeep, Bronco, Scout, and F series truck over the years. My current Jeep is the first Jeep I bought new.

Question most often heard is what should I do (Modify) to my Jeep first? My answer is Drive it! Wheel it ! Find out what works for you and what doesn't. After a few trips then decied where you want to go with modifications. Yes that goals will evolve over time, try to keep that in mind. Build it for you not to keep up with "the Jones". A daily driver is much different from a dedicated trail rig so are the capabilities to each.

My first ride was at AOAA in a cold February day. I had the good fortune to run with another JKUR that was completely stock. While it was frowned on to "build a road" to climb obstacles the rig was spotted and driven thru some challenge areas without damage. Fast forward a year and in comes this little black JK. Stock street tires, no suspension. We wheeled for a whole day thru lots of cool stuff and much to my surprise the bone stock Jeep hung in there and made each challenge with careful driving a some spotting. The lesson learned was Drive you Jeep. Find out what works for you and what doesn't. Learn a bit about your rig and what you would like to do with it. Set a goal and a budget for attaining that goal. Remember it is your Goal and there will always be some one with a more capable rig and more money to build that capability.

cont.
 
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I also hear that Jeeps handle like crap, agricultural machines, with poor road manners. My stock Jeep exhibited these tendencies from Day one. Being a Mechanic and an engineer plus having fallen into the "Can't leave well enough alone" puddle I started to look at the mechanics of the JKUR. Stock the Rubicon is a pretty good vehicle from the factory, but as usual the OEM takes some liberties with production and is constrained by Cost control and profit.
Some of the things I have found to be short of the mark:

1) Factory ball joints. The wear material is plastic, from day one my Rubicon wandered all of the road. Dealer replaced right side ball joints at no charge but not the left 4000 miles on my NEW Jeep at this point. The left were "within tolerance". Another 500 miles later they were no longer within tolerance and needed replacing. Factory ball joints are worthless with stock tires and rims. I replaced them with high quality ball joints and have not had a issue since. You pay for what you get. Yes you can just keep replacing cheap ball joints every year or buy a good quality set once and service ( read grease) at recommended intervals. Why buy a $500.00+ set of ball joints I can get them for much less and I will just replace then every couple of years? You certainly can do that, you time and labor is a cost and if you factor that in you are actually spending more money than buying a good quality component up front once. My $500.00 ball joints have 96,000 miles on them.

2) Tie rod, Drag link and track bars. Tie rod and drag link use the same design joint as the ball joints. The plastic material allow for movement and wears quickly. This joint movement coupled to ball joint movement all adds up to the dreaded Death Wobble that folks chase down. OEM ( Factory) steering gear is made as cheap as possible to constrain overall cost and maximize corporate profit and this doesn't fix the death wobble. The factory Tie Rod, Drag link and track bars all flex under load. This movement adds up to the loose wandering feeling driving the OEM Jeep. For Track bars, Look into a forged type track bar. Steering components ( Drag link and Tie rod) there are a variety of good manufactures out there. I have found the the 7075 Aluminum components are extremely strong and additionally they flex when they hit a rock , and flex right back to normal once off the rock.

3) Steering box. the stock JK box has a flaw in it , it doesn't hold up to high heat and loading very well. The combination of the two stresses the selector shaft and breaks it. Larger than stock tire and wheel loads contribute the the high loading as well as tough off road conditions. There are a couple of ways to go here; Go big with an oversize steering box or go with a hydraulic ram and a ported OEM box. Both approaches net the same end result a strong steering system with the higher than stock loading and abuses of off-roading.

Tires and lifts! " I got a new Jeep I need bigger tires, can I run 40 on a stock suspension?" This opens up a huge can or worms. Yes it is "cool" to have big tires and huge lift and if that is the direction you want to go, Go for it! However, ( pause for effect) understand the suspension geometry and how it affects you handling. If the rig is a trailer queen and will never see the street than the next paragraph is a mute point. Like most of us we do drive our rigs Handling is an issue. I will say this you get what you pay for and cheap has both Pros and Cons in most cases the Cons out weight the Pros in terms of drivability.

cont
 
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Lift kit or suspension upgrade? What is a lift kit? Well it is just what the title says a lift. It rasies the vehicle with blocks or spacers to achieve a Lifted stance retaining most of if not all the stock components. There are a bunch of these out there and some are down right dangerous. They use all the stock components while some relocate mounting points other simply add spacers. This is done to try to keep the OEM ride quality.... humm remember a few paragraphs back about the how bad Jeeps drive??? Now you have changed the center of gavity and moved mounting points around.... this can add to the ill handling properties of the rig.

Suspension upgrade. Yep, out with the old and in with the new. A performance suspension is just that a purpose built upgrade to the OEM suspension. These are usually more expensive than a lift kit and generally you get what you pay for. Yes you can spend $2500.00 for a suspension upgrade or as much as $50,000.00. Which one is better? It depends on what you are going to do. A good middle of the road suspension upgrade will run around $5000.00.

Short arm vs Long arm. It is All about the geometry here. Terms like Axle steer, Anti Squat and roll center are important terms to understand if handling and performance are the goal. If the short arm lift relocates the frame side pivot points your OEM geometry is retained but ground clearance is compromised. If the suspension is based on stock pivot point locations (Short arm) , Axle steer is induced. In short as the suspension cycles up or down the axle strays from the 90 degree orientation to the frame and effectively points the the front or rear in a direction other than straight. To keep the vehicle going straight you have to add steering input to counter. A Short arm kit is easy to install and can be done in your garage with simple hand tools. Cost ~$2000-$4000.
A long arm Suspension the arch that the axle move thru while cycling is much larger in radius, the amount of steer induced by up/down travel is reduced. The down side is Long arm kits are a bit more involved to install and often involve cutting old (OEM) mounts off to make way for the new mounting points on the frame. Cost here can wildly vary from bolt on system $8000, to a full on double tringulated system at $20,000+

Geometry, there is a huge amount of math in suspension design. Google has some great explanation of the terms Anti Squat and Roll center. In short ever wonder why some jeeps can get up that hill and other can't? Why some bounce when climbing and other do not? It is all about the set up. The rear suspension should drive the vehicle forward not jack or walk under the rig. It should not squat under acceleration either. If the rear suspension exhibits these tendencies the geometry is not right. there is much written on this subject and it could take hours and many pages to fully explain. In short your suspension should drive you forward and drive over the terrain not bounce you over it. if this is done correctly you can have a rig that rides like a luxury car on the road and climbs like a goat off road.

Tires... face it most of us spend 80% of our time on the black top and tires are expensive. Here everything is a trade off. A super aggressive tire will work well in gooey mud will handle poorly on the street. A great AT tire on the street might not handle the mud as well. I would say that how you tame the off road adventure working thru the problems presented is part of the challenge. Big tires present huge loads on suspension components. just going to a 37 from a 31 puts a huge strain on Gears and axle shafts. If you are going to run big tires you will need to address Gearing and at some point axle shafts. Sure you can wheel on a D30 with 40s and 3.21 gears if you drive careful but performance will suffer and in the end you will break something in the drive train.

General rule of thumb 4.56 gears for 35 inch tires, 4.88 for 37s and 5.38 for 40s. A stock Dana 30 axle will be ok if you drive smart for a 35 inch tire a D44 is better. At the 37 inch mark a Dana 44 would be my recommendation and if 40s are in your future high end axle shafts on a 44 will work but a Dana 60 or better will live longer. Something of note as ring and pinion strength goes down as the ratio goes up (3.21 to 5.38) the weak link on D30 and D44 are the pinions. on the D44 5.13:1 is about the limit in strength Pinion shafts are just getting too small and ring gear teeth are also getting smaller. The Larger axle D44, D60, D80 gives you a larger bigger ring gear and a larger pinion shaft.

Stock drive shafts on the JK/JKUR carry either a 1330 U-joint or a CV type joint. If you upgrade , upgrade! 1310 are not an upgrade as they are a physically smaller joint. If you can't run the stock Drive shaft look a the 1350 style to provide the capability needed to run big rubber. Solid vs greaseable U joints the debate rages on. a Solid U joint is stronger than a greaseable U joint for the simple reason there is no pathway drilled thru it for grease to flow. In this way a 1310 U joint is stronger than a Greaseable 1330 u joint. So what is the difference between a 1310, 1330, 1350, 1410 U Joint. Simple, Size. 1410 U joints are missive compared to a 1310. Size the shaft and u joint to the application there is no one size fits all or rule of thumb here.

This brings up another subject I offer here, "I would rather break a U joint than a Axle or diff". Hummm, if the build is designed right the weakest part of the whole drive train is the power plant. No I am not saying you will blow up a motor before you break a U joint, but is the power train is capable of handling the torque generated by the motor then before you destroy an axle or break a joint the motor should stall. I think we can agree the embarrassing stalling is far better than laying in the rocks trying to rebuild a drive shaft or axle end.

Axles, Great term, Chromoly axles what are they? Simple, all steel in axles have Chromoly in it. What you should be looking for is the heat treat. Stock axles ( this is the shaft inside the axle housing) are about a 1500 heat treat. Performance shafts for our applications usually fall with in the 4140 to 4340 range. There is always he option to go big with a 300M but at that range the axle shaft is so hard they can be brittle. The 4140 is twice as strong as you stock shafts and the 4340 is yet stronger but still allowing flexibility before breaking. Do you have to upgrade with larger tires? No, but at some point you might need to as your skills advance.

Brakes... I never found the OEM brakes to be comforting with the stock 32 inch tires. Going to 37s I needed a bit more braking to slow the beast down. Several companies make "big brake kits" it is a worthwhile investment in safety.

So the reality check .... to put on a set of 35/37 inch tires and wheel you are looking at
1) tire and wheels $4000-$5000
2) re-gearing $2000-$2500
3) Big Brake $1000+
4) Suspension modifications $2500
Total $9500.00- $11,000.00 give or take

Skid plates.... Get them at some point if you get into serious trails. if you are just a casual trail rider the OEM units are fine. You can always upgrade as you confidence builds.

Last note , upgrades to your Jeep add weight one of these fully built rig can easily weight upwards of 7500lbs. Weight adds to the workload you drive train as to deal with each time your drive. This needs to be part of the consideration in the build strategy.

I leave you with this. This is just my experiences I have learned in building my JKURR and working on other rigs and listening to the questions I field each time I talk to Jeep folks. I am not an expert but I do like a good performing machine and for me, I have no extra/second or third income to dip into to buy Jeep upgrades. My rig is a daily driver and my only all weather vehicle. It is a compromise in capability to achieve the goal of reliable daily driver and capable off road machine. As you go forward , do some research call vendors ( not shops) and talk to them about their parts. Most are very happy to chat and share the knowledge.



Cheers
Rob
 
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Great read and agree with it all. Wish I could have read all of this 3 years ago. Then again 2 years ago. Then again a year ago.

Wanted to add a point to the U-Joint piece. Going straight to 1410s from 1310s, in the "bigger is better" mindset isn't always conducive. Going bigger, depending on where it's being installed, can cause range of movement limitations. A super short drive shaft with 1410s may not have any place to move. Just keep that in mind when sizing and I agree completely, "building in" a "weak point" just does not compute.

For me, since I bought the YJ with a crappy lift already installed, "driving it" made me start with skids. These things really do take on a mind of their own and just wanted to emphasize the "Just go wheel it first" mentality. I had a "plan". Then drove it and the plan went out the window. It morphs every time I drive it.

PS. Thanks for taking your time to do all that.
 
I find myself referring folks to this at least a dozen times a year. While this writeup was about my JKURR it can apply to most any build. I agree 100% on the bigger and better statement. what size driveline goes in is dependent on many factors space and angle concerns are very big in this consideration.

The plan.... I have watch several of our members evolve thru the few years I have been here. One CJ started out just wanting to do Green trails ends up tickly Rock creek and now is modified even more to fit the evolution of the need. Red Jeep 2.0 is an example of the evolving capability. With the weight gain bearings have to work harder and the desire to go bigger with tires put more strain on the drive line. but the good thing is the build complements what is already installed.

Goal? Red Jeep 3.0. Willy extra cab pickup with 6 ft bed and a JKU suspension and drive train.

I will add, you can build your rig a million different ways. There is a budget with most rig builds and if your budget affords go better not cheaper the first time. That way when you revisit it is still working not in need of rebuilding.
 
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Another thought that comes to mind is Turn you own wrenches. This is hugly stressful for some, but there is a reason I say this. You will learn more about your rig this way and the sheer sense of acomplishment there are no words to describe. No tools? No Knoweldge? No Room? set up a wrenching party!!! a cool way to get help, learn and get stuff done on your Jeep. I for one am always willing to help
 
I find myself referring folks to this at least a dozen times a year. Whiel this writeup was about my JKURR it can apply to most any build. I agree 100% on the bigger and better statment. what size driveline goes in is dependant on many factors space and angle concerns are very big in this consideration.

The plan.... I have watch several of our members evolve thru the few years I have been here. One CJ started out just wanting to do Green trails ends up tackly Rock creek and now is modified even more to fit the evolution of the need. Red Jeep 2.0 is an example of the evloving capability. With the weight gain bearings have to work harder and the desire to go bigger with tires put more strain on the drive line. bu tthe good thing is the build compements what is already installed.

Goal? Red Jeep 3.0. Willy extra cab pickup with 6 ft bed and a JKU suspension and drive train.

I will add, you can build your rig a million different ways. There is a budget with most rig builds and if your budget affords go better not cheaper the first time. That way when you revisit it is still working not in need of rebuilding.

I could only imagine that Willy’s with the GME T6 Tornado Straight-Six Engine May Debut This April
to power Part Deux.
 
So....now that I've got a whole day of wheelin' under my belt, I figured I would come up with a game plan for what my teal beauty will need ;)

After speaking with a number of you over the weekend, as well as a nearby shop, this is where I'm at and would love to hear input so I'm confident I am going down the right path.

However, fair warning - I barely know what any of this means, so please do not start asking me a lot of technical questions that I cannot answer. Instead, I am looking for pointers that clarify my intentions and ensure I make the most of every $$ spent (which is NOT unlimited). If there are better ways to go about reaching my goal (or ways to save money) I am ALL FOR IT!

Although I appreciate Rob's suggestion of getting our own hands dirty, turning a wrench is just not going to be my thing so this work will need to be done at a shop:

Current Situation
  • 2020 Rubicon with a 2" Mopar lift (was told this lift is not great and will not last)
  • Factory tires (although larger ones were probably run by previous owner)
  • Currently experiencing death wobble
  • Everyday vehicle (may change down the road and become my weekend toy)
  • Regularly towing 2,000 lb + camper short and long distances (2-3 times a month)

Short Term Plan
Upgraded lift kit (2.5") - https://apexchassis.com/products/ki...4&_sid=aa43007a0&_ss=r&variant=40645407572129

By going to the upgraded lift kit, I'm told it will fix the death wobble and provide the following:
  • better steering (steering stabilizers are part of the recommendation as well)
  • track bar
  • front lower control arms
  • replace ball joints at same time
Other ads:

Long-Term Plan
- Gear upgrade - 488 because of towing and will give flexibility to run 37s if I feel so inclined.
Although it would be great to get all done at once it's not critical and will require breaking in which needs to be times right (500 miles driven with no towing or off-roading followed by 500 miles of towing).

- Replace rear bumper and tire rack (if/when I go to 37s)

Thanks in advance for any sage advice offered...
 
So....now that I've got a whole day of wheelin' under my belt, I figured I would come up with a game plan for what my teal beauty will need ;)

After speaking with a number of you over the weekend, as well as a nearby shop, this is where I'm at and would love to hear input so I'm confident I am going down the right path.

However, fair warning - I barely know what any of this means, so please do not start asking me a lot of technical questions that I cannot answer. Instead, I am looking for pointers that clarify my intentions and ensure I make the most of every $$ spent (which is NOT unlimited). If there are better ways to go about reaching my goal (or ways to save money) I am ALL FOR IT!

Although I appreciate Rob's suggestion of getting our own hands dirty, turning a wrench is just not going to be my thing so this work will need to be done at a shop:

Current Situation
  • 2020 Rubicon with a 2" Mopar lift (was told this lift is not great and will not last)
  • Factory tires (although larger ones were probably run by previous owner)
  • Currently experiencing death wobble
  • Everyday vehicle (may change down the road and become my weekend toy)
  • Regularly towing 2,000 lb + camper short and long distances (2-3 times a month)

Short Term Plan
Upgraded lift kit (2.5") - https://apexchassis.com/products/ki...4&_sid=aa43007a0&_ss=r&variant=40645407572129

By going to the upgraded lift kit, I'm told it will fix the death wobble and provide the following:
  • better steering (steering stabilizers are part of the recommendation as well)
  • track bar
  • front lower control arms
  • replace ball joints at same time
Other ads:

Long-Term Plan
- Gear upgrade - 488 because of towing and will give flexibility to run 37s if I feel so inclined.
Although it would be great to get all done at once it's not critical and will require breaking in which needs to be times right (500 miles driven with no towing or off-roading followed by 500 miles of towing).

- Replace rear bumper and tire rack (if/when I go to 37s)

Thanks in advance for any sage advice offered...
Mina, this is a great start to come forward and ask questions. My first question isn't technical, but more what do you want out of your Jeep? Is it a daily driver and rock crawler on the "weekends," for example? I imagine I already know the answer... but you never know! The great part is you took the first step. You wheeled it. It gave you insight on how your Jeep feels and what you might need next.

I would personally get a second opinion on the aspect that the lift specifically is causing the death wobble. If it was not inspected, I would have started with the basics, checking tires, tire balancing, or how the tires are wearing and in what pattern. I recall in the parking lot of Rausch one of our Members noticed the tire tread was wearing bad (correct me if I am wrong). Might be a good time to check that.

What are you experiencing when you drive? A shimmy in the steering wheel or vibrations under the seat? A wobble when hitting a rut in the road?

Those are just the basic questions I like to start with, as we get more into the list, the conversation will deepen and recommendations are dependent on what you want as a driver, your budget, and your long-term goals. Hope this helps and look forward to hearing more!
 
Great questions Hiam, thank you!

Trevor did get his eyes on the jeep but it wasn't a very long or thorough inspection. You are correct, Nick pointed out the tires were dry rotting and cracking on the edges. Unfortunately I just don't know what the previous owner was running on the jeep before I got it a year ago (or what kind of off roading they may have done). The wear on the tires isn't super obvious. Originally the lift kit was not a suggestion - was just talking steering but after he saw the lift he thought a new kit would be checking a bunch of the boxes at once.

The wobble is in the steering wheel when I hit a bump in just the right way it violently shakes back and forth for a bit - sometimes righting itself rather quickly and sometimes not until I hit my brakes.

It is my daily driver now and will be a crawler 1-2x a month for now (although I may explore more now that I know what it can do). In the next year or two I can easily see it becoming my weekend play toy.
 
Great questions Hiam, thank you!

Trevor did get his eyes on the jeep but it wasn't a very long or thorough inspection. You are correct, Nick pointed out the tires were dry rotting and cracking on the edges. Unfortunately I just don't know what the previous owner was running on the jeep before I got it a year ago (or what kind of off roading they may have done). The wear on the tires isn't super obvious. Originally the lift kit was not a suggestion - was just talking steering but after he saw the lift he thought a new kit would be checking a bunch of the boxes at once.

The wobble is in the steering wheel when I hit a bump in just the right way it violently shakes back and forth for a bit - sometimes righting itself rather quickly and sometimes not until I hit my brakes.

It is my daily driver now and will be a crawler 1-2x a month for now (although I may explore more now that I know what it can do). In the next year or two I can easily see it becoming my weekend play toy.
Death wobble can be caused by a variety of factors, often related to worn-out suspension / steering components - or poor suspension geometry. In the ideal setup, you want the track bar and drag link to be identical in length, and perfectly parallel. A great overview of potential causes of death wobble can be found here:

One thing to note is that steering stabilizers do not fix death wobble - they may dampen some of the symptoms and can reduce oscillation - but are not the cause. Looking at some pictures of the lift kit you posted you can actually see where the track bar and drag link angles are not aligned. While ideally you would check this when sitting on level ground, it serves to illustrate a point.
1713841199537.png


The unfortunate part is that as you add lift, re-using the factory mount locations for the steering components induces this misalignment. Multiple manufacturers attempt to correct this through new brackets that need to be installed on the frame or axle.
 
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This is all 100% my opinion, but it's based on decades of experience and chasing death wobble on many, many live axle vehicles.

I am putting this first, because I feel like it's the most important. You are going to have a bunch of people tell me how wrong I am and they have never had problems... etc., but I will NEVER user wheel spacers again. I have seen way too many of them fail, first hand. Both on vehicles that belongs to strangers and friends, but also my own vehicle. Just buy the right wheels.

As Hiam and Kevin pointed out, there are a lot of things that can cause vibration and death wobble. I don't know who looked at it, but I am not convinced the person who quoted you actually knows what the issue is. It sounds like they are just suggesting a bunch of parts with link-ends get replaced, hoping it's one of those parts.

Based on what you say you want to do, here are some thoughts I have. First, I would absolutely talk to the folks at OCD and schedule a second opinion. Even if you don't end up doing business with them, at least whoever you do work with, you will be going into it with more information, which is never a bad thing.

Next, that item you linked and listed as a lift kit, is not a lift kit. It is a 2.5 Ton steering upgrade. One that you absolutely do not need. You have seen what a monster build I have and the stuff I driver over during around 15 trips a year and I only have 1 ton steering, with zero steering issues. If you indeed have bad link ends in your steering, its much more affordable and sensible for someone with your use goals to simply replace the link ends.

There is nothing wrong with a MOPAR lift. There are much better performing kits, but its fine for many people. If you are going to get a new lift kit, I highly recommend a Metalcloak 2.5" Game Changer kit with RockSport extended travel shocks. I have had just about every brand kit available in the last 10 years and the Game Changer has the best ride, by far. Also, if you decide to upgrade to a 3.5" lift to accommodate 37" tires, all you need to do is swap the springs. You don't need a new lift kit because the Metalcloak kit is a complete kit.

If you do plan on towing a lot and having heavy loads in the back, you may want to talk to a shop about putting the 3.5 inch springs in the rear. You will have about a 1.5" rake when its empty and no trailer, but it will be level when loaded, which is very important for safety when towing. Your Metalcloak dealer should be able to help with that... BTW, OCD Offroad Shop is one of only two Authorized dealers in Virginia that are an official Gold Level installer. If you decide to go with Metalcloak, that would be another benefit of dealing with OCD.

If you have bad link ends and want to upgrade/replace the steering, I would also recommend the Metalcloak 1 ton steering. As I mentioned, mine is solid and the only set that I have had that lasted more than 6,000 miles.

There is a chance that the death wobble is coming from the ball joints, but I wouldn't just replace them blindly. I would want to know if they are good or not. As I mentioned, it sounds like the estimate you got is just covering everything, hoping they get it, instead of knowing what's wrong.

I have zero experience with that winch or bumper, but I would guess they would be okay based on specs. I would do some reviews on the bumper to be sure the finish holds up and it doesn't rust prematurely.

4.88:1 gears are okay, but I think 4.56:1 gears restores the factory gear to tire ratio with 35" tires. This will give you the best balance of towing and fuel economy. 4.88's will give you better torque, but the fuel economy will not be ideal unless you actually install 37" tires.

As far as break-in goes, nothing needs a break-in but the gears. It's 500 miles of stop and go, varying speeds, below 50-55 mph and stopping for 20-30 minutes every 40 minutes to allow cooling. Then you MUST replace the gear fluid. Especially before you tow. Once that is done, they are broken in. There is no additional break-in for towing or offroading. If you are going to be towing (and minor/occassional offroading), you are going to need better cooling in the differentials. This means something like a 90/140 weight.

It's a lot to read and digest, but I hope it helps.
 
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So....now that I've got a whole day of wheelin' under my belt, I figured I would come up with a game plan for what my teal beauty will need ;)

After speaking with a number of you over the weekend, as well as a nearby shop, this is where I'm at and would love to hear input so I'm confident I am going down the right path.

However, fair warning - I barely know what any of this means, so please do not start asking me a lot of technical questions that I cannot answer. Instead, I am looking for pointers that clarify my intentions and ensure I make the most of every $$ spent (which is NOT unlimited). If there are better ways to go about reaching my goal (or ways to save money) I am ALL FOR IT!

Although I appreciate Rob's suggestion of getting our own hands dirty, turning a wrench is just not going to be my thing so this work will need to be done at a shop:

Current Situation
  • 2020 Rubicon with a 2" Mopar lift (was told this lift is not great and will not last)
  • Factory tires (although larger ones were probably run by previous owner)
  • Currently experiencing death wobble
  • Everyday vehicle (may change down the road and become my weekend toy)
  • Regularly towing 2,000 lb + camper short and long distances (2-3 times a month)

Short Term Plan
Upgraded lift kit (2.5") - https://apexchassis.com/products/ki...4&_sid=aa43007a0&_ss=r&variant=40645407572129

By going to the upgraded lift kit, I'm told it will fix the death wobble and provide the following:
  • better steering (steering stabilizers are part of the recommendation as well)
  • track bar
  • front lower control arms
  • replace ball joints at same time
Other ads:

Long-Term Plan
- Gear upgrade - 488 because of towing and will give flexibility to run 37s if I feel so inclined.
Although it would be great to get all done at once it's not critical and will require breaking in which needs to be times right (500 miles driven with no towing or off-roading followed by 500 miles of towing).

- Replace rear bumper and tire rack (if/when I go to 37s)

Thanks in advance for any sage advice offered...
Some thoughts for you.

  • 2020 Rubicon with a 2" Mopar lift (was told this lift is not great and will not last) The Mopar lift is a good budget lift The JL with a 2 inch lift provided enough room to upgrade to a 37 inch tire. Alignment specs are same as Factory. if you upgrade from this look at something low maintenance and beefy. This is where beef counts, in the suspension.
  • Factory tires (although larger ones were probably run by previous owner) Tires there are a lot of brands out there. I personally like BFG AT style tires for a couple reasons. They are a low rolling resistance tire meaning they will have less of an effect on fuel mileage and they tend to last a long time. Performance on road or off is excellent. They tend to be a little pricy but worth the buck IMHO Another thing to look at is tire weight. Lighter is better.
  • Currently experiencing death wobble Note: If the shop you are dealing with is recommending a steering stabilizer to fix this Find a new shop!!.
  • What to look at here:
    • Alignment. Add more caster to the alignment. This might require replacing the lower control arms with an adjustable set to be able to add caster. Simple fix and inexpensive.
    • Unibearings Check for play and replace with a good quality set ( recommend Timken Bearings)
    • Ball Joints Lots of different brand out there. I use Dynatrac Ball Joints. They are rebuildable and will last a very long time. The ones in my JK 44 axles were still going strong at 130,000 miles. Yes they are not cheap, but the quality is they and they can be rebuilt on the rig without special tools.
    • Track bar(s) OEM ( Factory is a tube steel and prone to flexing add to that the Tie rod and Drag link and things can get sporty quick. Teraflex makes a Forged Track bar that is strong as an ox and fairly affordable The ends ( joints) are rebuildable
    • Shop around for steering systems 2.5T is a beefy system The 1T systems has some advantages. 1) they mostly use common Chevy 1T rod ends. This means if you break one on the trail you can get a new one from a local parts store. 2) they are smaller in Diameter give you less issues with clearance. A word on Flip kits. Drilling out the knuckle is ok but installing the sleeve is a failure point. If going the route of a flip kit I recommend upgrading the knuckles as well. Reid Racing is my go to here High Quality and long lasting.
    • Another consideration, bit of a high dollar option is a steering box upgrade In place of yet another steering stabilizer consider a hydraulic assist ram. This requires either porting the steering box or upgrading to a bigger unit. PSC is the King here with their 1T steering conversion. This is not cheap I repeat NOT cheap but a very solid upgrade that will last well into 100,000 miles.

  • Everyday vehicle (may change down the road and become my weekend toy)
  • Regularly towing 2,000 lb + camper short and long distances (2-3 times a month) My JKURR was a tow rig as well with a factory 6 speed and 4.88 gears on 37s. I never found that it had enough Power to tow adequately Lots of shifting of gears to try to keep up.
Winch. 12K is overkill for you rig. I would recommend a 10,000 pound rated unit. An excellent brand is Warm but comes with a cost. Budget friendly is Smittybilt X2O. Remember the winch is just one part of the recovery system. When you add accessories like turning blocks and shackles you have to look at ratings on these pieces. A double line recovery means you can have 24,000# of force the all of the equipment needs to be rated for or exceed that. Above 10K# the accessories get $$$$$ fast.

Wheel spacers are just a bad idea. Most are made of aluminum and need to be kept up. Yes lots of folk run them and some shops even recommend them. I have had to deal with too many lost wheels on the trail due to failed wheel spacers. A wheel with better back spacing is a much safer route.


Modifications all come with a concern. WEIGHT. Steel is heavy The more steel you add the heavier you rig gets. Red Jeep weight a slim 7100# let that sink in a minute Stock curb weight was 4500#. Asking the little 3.6L motor to pull all the weight at freeway speeds is a tough ask. Look at Aluminum products whenever you can yes they are more expensive but the weight savings will pay benefits.

Immediate fixes. Fix the drivability.

Winch is an excellent upgrade.
From there you can start building out as $$ allow.
 
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I will also add that if you want an independent opinion of your rigs issues, feel free to stop by my garage any weekend. Be happy to go over things that need work, things that will need work and things that should be replaced now. Education on what you need is key here. Lots of shops will "sell" you on stuff, So knowing what you need or what are the root cause of the problem is key to keeping the sell in check. the club has a working relationship with OCD as a vendor and Nick is employed there.

Cheers
Rob
 
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Death wobble can be caused by a variety of factors, often related to worn-out suspension / steering components - or poor suspension geometry. In the ideal setup, you want the track bar and drag link to be identical in length, and perfectly parallel. A great overview of potential causes of death wobble can be found here:

One thing to note is that steering stabilizers do not fix death wobble - they may dampen some of the symptoms and can reduce oscillation - but are not the cause. Looking at some pictures of the lift kit you posted you can actually see where the track bar and drag link angles are not aligned. While ideally you would check this when sitting on level ground, it serves to illustrate a point.
View attachment 8680

The unfortunate part is that as you add lift, re-using the factory mount locations for the steering components induces this misalignment. Multiple manufacturers attempt to correct this through new brackets that need to be installed on the frame or axle.
Thank you so much! The video is super helpful as well as the education around stabilizers and track bar angles. Appreciate your input!
 
This is all 100% my opinion, but it's based on decades of experience and chasing death wobble on many, many live axle vehicles.

I am putting this first, because I feel like it's the most important. You are going to have a bunch of people tell me how wrong I am and they have never had problems... etc., but I will NEVER user wheel spacers again. I have seen way too many of them fail, first hand. Both on vehicles that belongs to strangers and friends, but also my own vehicle. Just buy the right wheels.

As Hiam and Kevin pointed out, there are a lot of things that can cause vibration and death wobble. I don't know who looked at it, but I am not convinced the person who quoted you actually knows what the issue is. It sounds like they are just suggesting a bunch of parts with link-ends get replaced, hoping it's one of those parts.

Based on what you say you want to do, here are some thoughts I have. First, I would absolutely talk to the folks at OCD and schedule a second opinion. Even if you don't end up doing business with them, at least whoever you do work with, you will be going into it with more information, which is never a bad thing.

Next, that item you linked and listed as a lift kit, is not a lift kit. It is a 2.5 Ton steering upgrade. One that you absolutely do not need. You have seen what a monster build I have and the stuff I driver over during around 15 trips a year and I only have 1 ton steering, with zero steering issues. If you indeed have bad link ends in your steering, its much more affordable and sensible for someone with your use goals to simply replace the link ends.

There is nothing wrong with a MOPAR lift. There are much better performing kits, but its fine for many people. If you are going to get a new lift kit, I highly recommend a Metalcloak 2.5" Game Changer kit with RockSport extended travel shocks. I have had just about every brand kit available in the last 10 years and the Game Changer has the best ride, by far. Also, if you decide to upgrade to a 3.5" lift to accommodate 37" tires, all you need to do is swap the springs. You don't need a new lift kit because the Metalcloak kit is a complete kit.

If you do plan on towing a lot and having heavy loads in the back, you may want to talk to a shop about putting the 3.5 inch springs in the rear. You will have about a 1.5" rake when its empty and no trailer, but it will be level when loaded, which is very important for safety when towing. Your Metalcloak dealer should be able to help with that... BTW, OCD Offroad Shop is one of only two Authorized dealers in Virginia that are an official Gold Level installer. If you decide to go with Metalcloak, that would be another benefit of dealing with OCD.

If you have bad link ends and want to upgrade/replace the steering, I would also recommend the Metalcloak 1 ton steering. As I mentioned, mine is solid and the only set that I have had that lasted more than 6,000 miles.

There is a chance that the death wobble is coming from the ball joints, but I wouldn't just replace them blindly. I would want to know if they are good or not. As I mentioned, it sounds like the estimate you got is just covering everything, hoping they get it, instead of knowing what's wrong.

I have zero experience with that winch or bumper, but I would guess they would be okay based on specs. I would do some reviews on the bumper to be sure the finish holds up and it doesn't rust prematurely.

4.88:1 gears are okay, but I think 4.56:1 gears restores the factory gear to tire ratio with 35" tires. This will give you the best balance of towing and fuel economy. 4.88's will give you better torque, but the fuel economy will not be ideal unless you actually install 37" tires.

As far as break-in goes, nothing needs a break-in but the gears. It's 500 miles of stop and go, varying speeds, below 50-55 mph and stopping for 20-30 minutes every 40 minutes to allow cooling. Then you MUST replace the gear fluid. Especially before you tow. Once that is done, they are broken in. There is no additional break-in for towing or offroading. If you are going to be towing (and minor/occassional offroading), you are going to need better cooling in the differentials. This means something like a 90/140 weight.

It's a lot to read and digest, but I hope it helps.
SPACERS - You have confirmed what I had been told by others but the person I spoke to said there were no issues with them. Thank you for confirming what I already knew and for saving me headaches – I will get new wheels.

2ND OPINION - Completely agree a 2nd set of eyes is critical and have heard OCD is top notch ;) Only issue I had was proximity to where I live (which I can overcome).

LIFT KIT - I had the wrong link (due to poor note taking) and it was actually a Rock Krawler kit that was recommended. I don’t have the exact one. IF I choose to go with a lift kit (not convinced this is necessary) I will take your recommendations of the Metalcloak with RockSport shocks. To confirm, are you saying if I upgraded to a 2.5” Game Changer now, I would be able to just swap out springs to get to 3.5” for 37s in the future? Want to make sure I’m tracking here, although I can also confirm this directly with OCD when I reach out.

STEERING - Got ya on Metalcloak again. Although knowing anything I replace will only last 6k miles is concerning to this newbie!

BALL JOINTS – Agreed. Need a better assessment. I think it was more “may as well replace them since everything will be torn apart” approach. My interpretation but there was a lot being discussed all at once so could have been misconstrued.

BUMPER – Point taken. Just not a lot of options with the receiver and I was told it was a solid company.

GEARS – If there is no real advantage to going to 4.88:1 then I can hold off. It was more the approach of gear up because of the towing and in advance of the 37s (but if it’s not a big deal to swap out a few years down the road, the 4.56:1 makes sense for now.

Agreed, the break-in was just for the gears with the fluid being replaced in-between and after the two 500 mile break-in periods.

The better cooling in the differentials is news to me and I appreciate your recommendation.

Ultimately, I agree with your assessment to do more assessing ;) I don’t want to throw a lift kit into the mix just because it’s trying to get at a problem. I like the height of my jeep and don’t plan on putting 37s on anytime soon.

Honestly, this exercise has made me conclude that I move forward with 35s with new wheels and worry about upgrading things to accommodate the 37s down the road. I cannot say for certain I will ever go to 37s so spinning my wheels (pun intended) this far in advance is probably overkill.

Thank you for all the sage advice...much appreciated!
 
Some thoughts for you.
  • 2020 Rubicon with a 2" Mopar lift (was told this lift is not great and will not last) The Mopar lift is a good budget lift The JL with a 2 inch lift provided enough room to upgrade to a 37 inch tire. Alignment specs are same as Factory. if you upgrade from this look at something low maintenance and beefy. This is where beef counts, in the suspension. I DON’T BELIEVE I CAN GO TO A 37” WITH THIS LIFT KIT BUT AS I MENTIONED ABOVE, I’M RETHINKING THE WHOLE 37” TIRE THING NOW – 35S ARE REALLY GOING TO GIVE ME THE LOOK AND PERFORMANCE I’M LOOKING FOR AT THIS STAGE.
  • Factory tires (although larger ones were probably run by previous owner) Tires there are a lot of brands out there. I personally like BFG AT style tires for a couple reasons. They are a low rolling resistance tire meaning they will have less of an effect on fuel mileage and they tend to last a long time. Performance on road or off is excellent. They tend to be a little pricy but worth the buck IMHO Another thing to look at is tire weight. Lighter is better. – GREAT RECOMMENDATION – THANK YOU!
  • Currently experiencing death wobble Note: If the shop you are dealing with is recommending a steering stabilizer to fix this Find a new shop!!. THIS MAY HAVE BEEN LOST IN TRANSLATION. I BELIEVE HE WAS JUST SAYING THAT THE STABILIZERS SHOULD BE PART OF UPGRADING THE STEERING (NOT THAT THEY ALONE WOULD SOLVE THE ISSUE)
  • What to look at here:
    • Alignment. Add more caster to the alignment. This might require replacing the lower control arms with an adjustable set to be able to add caster. Simple fix and inexpensive. – GOT IT. THE LOWER CONTROL ARMS WAS INCLUDED WITH THE LIFT KIT SUGGESTION (WHICH MAY BE WHY HE STARTED GOING THAT DIRECTION – CLICKING OFF MULTIPLE ITEMS WITH A LIFT KIT “FIX”. NOT SAYING IT’S RIGHT, JUST INTERPRETING THE APPROACH
    • Unibearings Check for play and replace with a good quality set ( recommend Timken Bearings) – WILL ADD THIS TO THE LIST OF ITEMS TO DISCUSS AT OCD
    • Ball Joints Lots of different brand out there. I use Dynatrac Ball Joints. They are rebuildable and will last a very long time. The ones in my JK 44 axles were still going strong at 130,000 miles. Yes they are not cheap, but the quality is they and they can be rebuilt on the rig without special tools. – GOT IT
    • Track bar(s) OEM ( Factory is a tube steel and prone to flexing add to that the Tie rod and Drag link and things can get sporty quick. Teraflex makes a Forged Track bar that is strong as an ox and fairly affordable The ends ( joints) are rebuildable - THANK YOU
    • Shop around for steering systems 2.5T is a beefy system The 1T systems has some advantages. 1) they mostly use common Chevy 1T rod ends. This means if you break one on the trail you can get a new one from a local parts store. 2) they are smaller in Diameter give you less issues with clearance. A word on Flip kits. Drilling out the knuckle is ok but installing the sleeve is a failure point. If going the route of a flip kit I recommend upgrading the knuckles as well. Reid Racing is my go to here High Quality and long lasting. – CALLING UNCLE ON THIS ONE – FLEW RIGHT OVER MY HEAD BUT WILL ADD IT TO MY LIST OF DISCUSSION POINTS DURING EVALUALATIONS
    • Another consideration, bit of a high dollar option is a steering box upgrade In place of yet another steering stabilizer consider a hydraulic assist ram. This requires either porting the steering box or upgrading to a bigger unit. PSC is the King here with their 1T steering conversion. This is not cheap I repeat NOT cheap but a very solid upgrade that will last well into 100,000 miles. - GOT IT

  • Everyday vehicle (may change down the road and become my weekend toy) -
  • Regularly towing 2,000 lb + camper short and long distances (2-3 times a month) My JKURR was a tow rig as well with a factory 6 speed and 4.88 gears on 37s. I never found that it had enough Power to tow adequately Lots of shifting of gears to try to keep up. – SO 4.88 ON 35S WOULD DO THE TRICK FOR TOWING NEEDS??
Winch. 12K is overkill for you rig. I would recommend a 10,000 pound rated unit. An excellent brand is Warm but comes with a cost. Budget friendly is Smittybilt X2O. Remember the winch is just one part of the recovery system. When you add accessories like turning blocks and shackles you have to look at ratings on these pieces. A double line recovery means you can have 24,000# of force the all of the equipment needs to be rated for or exceed that. Above 10K# the accessories get $$$$$ fast. – GOT IT! THANK YOU! I’M ALL ABOUT AVOIDING OVERKILL (AND EXTRA $$$). ALSO GOOD TO KNOW ABOUT THE ACCESSORIES…

Wheel spacers are just a bad idea. Most are made of aluminum and need to be kept up. Yes lots of folk run them and some shops even recommend them. I have had to deal with too many lost wheels on the trail due to failed wheel spacers. A wheel with better back spacing is a much safer route. - WHEELS IT WILL BE

Modifications all come with a concern. WEIGHT. Steel is heavy The more steel you add the heavier you rig gets. Red Jeep weight a slim 7100# let that sink in a minute Stock curb weight was 4500#. Asking the little 3.6L motor to pull all the weight at freeway speeds is a tough ask. Look at Aluminum products whenever you can yes they are more expensive but the weight savings will pay benefits. – YES, I UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE ALUMINUM AND WILL BE AWARE OF RECOMMENDATIONS FOR ANYTHING STEEL RELATED


Immediate fixes. Fix the drivability. + NEW TIRES & WHEELS
Winch is an excellent upgrade.
From there you can start building out as $$ allow.
Thank you Rob!! Extremely helpful
 
I will also add that if you want an independent opinion of your rigs issues, feel free to stop by my garage any weekend. Be happy to go over things that need work, things that will need work and things that should be replaced now. Education on what you need is key here. Lots of shops will "sell" you on stuff, So knowing what you need or what are the root cause of the problem is key to keeping the sell in check. the club has a working relationship with OCD as a vendor and Nick is employed there.

Cheers
Rob
Thank you Rob! I may just take you up on that. Can't remember where you reside, but will PM you ;)
 
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